moggy lover

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Posts by moggy lover

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  26

  Society demands submission as a 'sacred responsibility'

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the society demands submission to them as equal to submission to christ.

  nov 1, 2006 watchtower, page 22 of the first study article "do you share jehovah's view of sacred things?

  " para 7:

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  moggy lover

  I am constantly being amazed at the disingenuous way the WTS props up its dogmatism before its R&F membership. Surely using Heb 13:17 to apply to the ''Other sheep'' is wrenching the verse out of the very context for which it was intended.

  It is true that the writer of Hebrews exhorted his readers, as believers in Jesus Christ, to submit to their local leaders. But what the WTS ignores is the very legitimate question of why. Why indeed are "we" to "submit" and "obey" our leaders? Because our obedience is predicated on a certain eventuality.

  In vs 14 tells the writer tells "us" that WE have a "lasting city" which is not here but we are seeking the city which is to come. [Which the WTS says is the "heavenly Jerusalem" and which is limited to the ''anointed''] What the WTS in effect is saying is that the act of obedience is required, but the reward is not !!

  I recall Ray Franz in his book "in Search of Christian Freedom" [pgs 181-185] saying that the members of the GB have a real antipathy to reading and studying the Bible [especially the NT] in its context, because it may "stumble" the R&F. It is so much easier to stitch seperate scriptures together and to make them mean whatever the WTS wants it to mean.

  In this respect, in order to bolster its more pompous, ritualized statements, the WTS cultivates, among its R&F membership, a veneer of religious authoritarianism, overlaid with a susve, almost unctious gloss of dogmatism. It is this authoritarian system with its dictatorial centralism and noxious bigotries which provides the basis for its interpretation of scripture.

  For the WT interpretation of the Bible to be sucessful it must have a pliant, submissive following who collectively agree to abdicate all resonsible thinking to the WT leadership. It is sad to see so many actually being browbeaten, by the constant refrain that the WTS is God's exclusive channel, into doing this.

  Cheers
• 
  90

  The Divine Error of the Ages. Russell Chart update.

  by Wasanelder Once in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  .

  couldn't resist.. w.once.

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  moggy lover

  Sheer genius.

  Hozabout: "Divine" Error of the Ages

  Cheers
• 
  13

  What is Rom 15: 20,21 getting at?

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  romans 15: 20 & 21 "in this way, indeed, i made it my aim not to declare the good news where christ had already been named, in order that i might not be building on another man's foundation; but, just as it is written: "those to whom no announcement has been made about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.

  could this be used to show that jw's are wrong to condemn all other christians as false, because as long as these other christians have accepted christ and have him as their foundation, does it really matter if some of their doctrines are not quite right?

  i think this scripture shows that jw's are wrong to focus so much on the faults of other christian religions.

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  moggy lover

  I am sure the text you mentioned could be referring to other Christians who had heard the "name" being named. It is quite evident that Paul was concerned with preaching a person - rather than a body ofdoctrine imposed on believers by a secretive centralized imperium sitting in Jerusalem. I feel that because of this, Paul saw himself as a true pioneer [not a WT one, I hasten to add] opening up virgin territory to the Gospel of God's grace in Jesus Christ.

  Although why Paul included a quote from the second half of Isa 52:15, in his discourse, I do not know.

  Oddly enough, when I scrolled through the WT CD Rom, I found no reference to Ro 15:20,21. So, either the GB hav'nt a clue what it means, or they have not as yet confected some WT approved brew that could be given to the R&F to swallow.

  Cheers
• 
  25

  Does anyone now celebrate...

  by Hannah in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  does anyone who was raised a jw and is now df'd of da'd celebrate all the holidays?

  i do, and for the first time in my entire life i'm actually having a blast and so are my children.

  at least my youngest child doesn't have to suffer the segregation all jw children surrender to due to the freakin' mind controlling gb and all there so called "god channeled" rules..

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  moggy lover

  Yes, I do as well, especially Christmas. Because it is a family oriented celebration I now feel so much closer to them than before. Seeing all of us together, along with the grand nieces and nephews and all the crazy antics we get into makes it seem so..... well....human.

  Cheers
• 
  17

  Just read today about a sect in England called "Lord's Witnesses".....

  by rocky220 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sounds familiar...?.

  link does not work, go to googles, enter lord's witnesses and find the website with the name speroforum.com hope that works, this sect sounds crazier than .

  the borg.......rocky220.

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  moggy lover

  "Living Waters" group??? Who in heck are they? I have heard of the "Lord's Witnesses" but this one is a new one on me. Anyone have any info? Are they US based or UK? Are they a breakaway from the Lord's witnesses? If so they they woud be a breakaway from a breakaway.

  Please Lord, give us a break

  Cheers
• 
  16

  Shining as Illuminators in The World--pdf!

  by Atlantis in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the pdf file for "shining as illuminators in the world" also includes the [pages for notes] just as they appear in this 253 page book.

  here are two hosting sites you can use to download the book.

  the first link below will show seconds counting down under the words: [ download description: education]near the bottom of the page and the download link will appear in blue numbers and letters.

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  moggy lover

  Great work as usual, Big A. I remember this book back in the late post-' 75 years.We were so far into the last days that the pioneers had to be given this special education. Even we elders were not allowed a look at this book !! Two members of my congregation later went to Gilead then served in Cameroon, West Africa, only to leave the WTS in the 90s.

  Thanks a lot for this timely gift in due season. May your tribe increase.

  Ta, mate
• 
  7

  Publisher statistics

  by Shepherd Book in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  every year for at least the last half-century, the society has published statistics on the activity of jws around the world.

  i am hoping someone here can provide me with that information, or can direct me as to where it can be found.

  specifically, i am looking for usa-specific data: usa population (the way watchtower counts it - sans alaska and hawaii), number of publishers in the usa and number baptized in the usa.

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  moggy lover

  Hang on for just a couple of months. The Jan 1 issue of each WT gives you the latest census report of the WT "population" and their activity. Someone may be able to scan it for you. I am interested in the latest statistics myself.

  Cheers
• 
  28

  What do you call a...? (corn warning!)

  by AuldSoul in

  1. social
  2. humour

  on ian's thread, chiddy inspired me to start this up.. what do you call a man with no arms and no legs at the city dump?

  phil.. what do you call a woman with no arms and one leg standing on a street corner?

  eileen.. what do you call a chinese woman with no arms and one leg standing on a street corner?

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  moggy lover

  Seeing we're coming into the chrissy season and Rudolph visiting us soon, along with his mate, Sandy Claws:

  What would we call Rudolph the red nosed ........., if he could'nt see?

  No idea [No eye deer]

  What do we call the stuff we throw away?

  Junk

  What do we call the junk we keep?

  Stuff

  What do you call a beautiful woman who has eyes in the back of her head?

  Mum [mom - US, Can]

  What do you call a church that is always praying?

  Prayer-conditioned

  What do you call the study of heavenly bodies?

  Anatomy

  boom boom
• 
  6

  The Importance of Good Punctuation

  by Clam in

  1. social
  2. humour

  dear john: .

  i want a man who knows what love is all about.

  you are generous, kind, thoughtful.

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  moggy lover

  OK, here's one I picked up somewhere along the walk of life:

  That that is is that that is not is not is it it is

  Which becomes:

  That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is it? It is.

  Cheers
• 
  137

  New World Translation Brackets!!

  by gold_morning in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.

  the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".

  at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.

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  moggy lover

  Thanks for your post, Mondo 1 and let me say how much it has helped in broading my understanding of Pauls argument in Colossians 1. If I understand your point of view please tell me if I am wrong in summarizing your viewpoint as follows:

  You feel that the NWT is justified in applying the word "other" in the text at Col 1 because:

  1 Other translations do so. I recall you mentioning two such versions, NIV and NASV

  2 Col 1:15 is a partitive genitive, hence making Christ a part of the creation of which He is the prwtotokos - in fact you point out that prwtotokos is always so used

  3 I am not sure about why the text at Jo 14:9 was used, except insofar as you are demonstating that word-for-word translations are impossible in converting one language to another, especially if the receptor language has a different cultural milleu

  4 You suggest that Col 1:20 is exclusive rather than inclusive in its thrust, in other words, I gather that you understand this verse to refer to at least one thing being excluded from its meaning, Christ Himself

  1 I am not aware of any translation ever using the word "other" as an insertion for the either the term "panta" or the even more emphatic "Ta Panta" indeed, the very nature of Ta panta can only refer to "every single thing". I am not saying that the translations you mention, NIV and NASV dont do this, I am merely saying that I am not aware of this. If you have examples of this please let us know. I am aware that the RSV uses "other" at Lu 13:2, but this is because it is contrasting "All Galileans'' - pantas tous Galillaious - with "the Galileans" in a complete context. The JB reads similarly.

  A similar contrast is found in Phil 2:21, where "Timothy" is contarsted with "All" the ones Paul is discussing. Hence JB has "other'' here as well.

  The proof you are going to have to provide for us, to justify the use of "other" at Col1:15, is to indicate that somehow Paul is contrasting Christ as "Prwtotokos paseis ktisews" to something else. To suggest that, because the RSV uses "other" at Lu 21:3 it therefore somehow justifies the NWT in insertng the word here is sloppy reasoning. You will need to show at least one translation that employs "Other'' here.

  2 Is Col 1:15 a partive genitive? Or is it a genitive of comparison? Probably - to both questions. Prof A S Peake writing in the Expositor's Greek NT says: "Grammatically it is possible to make "Paseis ktisews" a partitive genitive, but this is excluded by the context which sharply distinguishes between the Son and "ta Panta" For Paul to have this idea [partitive genitive] he would have probably used "prwtoktistos" The genitive is therfore commonly explained as a genitive of comparison" [Vol 3, pg 503]

  Further, the Partitive genitive would be possible if the Chronological view of "prwtotokos" was in effect here. As both Narkissos and Leolaia have pointed out, the idea of prwtotokos here is one of pre-eminence, not time. It is true that everywhere else "prwtotokos" may be considered patitive, but this is precisely because it is chronological. You need to the show this here, not assume it.

  3 The interrogative of Jo 14:19, used as a present tense in the Greek, is in fact talking of an acommplished fact, hence effectively a historic present, which in English is correctly translated as a perfect, ie "have"

  4 I tend to agree with Nark at Col 1:20, in that there is nothing in the context to suggest the loosening of the thrust of "ta panta" here. Is is far more probable that Paul was inferring that in Christ there is to be a reconciliation of "every single thing" rather than the exclusion of at least one ''thing'' Christ Himself

  Thanks for the post, keep well

  Cheers